Peng FAQ

Mike Sigman to german neijia list:

Hallo Liste:
Please feel free to use this FAQ in any WEB-sites or publications, if you
think it will be useful for our fellow enthusiasts.

I thinak so. here it is:


FAQ: Comments on Peng Jing

Below are various discussions and quotes about the subject of peng jing, particularly those which clarify the foundation aspects of peng jing . There have been a number of misconceptions about Taiji and the "internal arts" and not surprisingly a number of theories have been presented as fact to fill the gaps. No matter what else a Taiji or internal style contains, though, it *must* contain peng jing as a foundation. All other healing things, philosophies, tactics, strategies, training and conditioning methods, etc., are secondary to this requirement, as is quite clear from the below-listed commentaries.

Any putative Taiji style which says that it is internal but does not contain peng jing and the sophisticated elements of peng-jing based movement is, as can be seen from the below, something else masquerading as Taiji or an internal style. While this statement may seem harsh to people who have committed their pride and belief otherwise, let their arguments be directed at the wrongness of the famous masters who are quoted below, and not at the members of the neijia list. In other words, consider the possibility that your own beliefs may be misplaced, not the beliefs of the neijia list.

Naturally, the Neijia list stands ready to embrace any new and valid information, but it seems pretty well established (from the below) that the information must first pass the hurdle of peng jing.


From: Rreylloc@aol.com
from Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle
by Kuo Lien-Ying

p.44:

"Actually, one can say that T'ai Chi boxing is Peng ching boxing because without Peng ching there is no T'ai Chi boxing....

When moving, receiving, collecting, and striking, Peng ching is always used......Peng ching is T'ai Chi boxing's essential energy".

p.67:

"Although there are eight energies, the key is Peng ching.....All eight energies have their basis in Peng ching. On the surface Peng ching has different appearances so it is called the eight gates, but the root is always Peng ching".

p.103:

"Tai Chi boxing from beginning to end, whether in stillness or movement, must have Peng ching (potential energy). If any part of the body does not have Peng ching, it is a defect. When Peng ching is present there is flexibility. Without Peng ching there is no flexibility."

[[Researched by Bob Collier]] Rreylloc@aol.com


From: Jesse Marandino <jesse@clutchcity.ross.com>

Jingyu Gu, third generation student of Wu Jian-Quan lineage, practitioner of taiji for +20 years:

Jingyu "Don't even talk about any of the other jings if you do not understand peng-jing."


From: allen@starfire.utias.utoronto.ca: [[in discussion about written commentary in re: peng jing]]

I wouldn't say as recent as Feng ZhiQiang...I would push it back as far as Chen FaKe, who was reported to have said that there are two types of peng, one being the technique, one being *the* basic taiji jing, and *is* the silk reeling jing. That would be from the period that he was in beijing (1930s to late 50s). In Shen JiaZhen's Chen style taijiquan book (1963), he clearly and unmistakablly identified peng jing as the basic internal strength of taijiquan. Since Shen JiaZhen's book was viewed as the definitive work representing Chen FaKe's teaching in his later years (the book had inputs from many of FaKe's students, and was edited by Chen ZhouKui), and was considered as the official Chen style book, I believe this is when *it* started (he even said taijiquan is peng jing quan). Heck, most of Chen style stuff and silk reeling stuff in Jou Tsung Hwa's book were "copied" from this book. So he has this half-cooked idea about peng as the basic jing, but then he mixed it up with the peng technique from Yang style, added in the description of peng from Shen JiaZhen's book, and some of his ideas, and you have this strange section in the chapter (heck the entire chapter) where you don't really know exactly where he got his sources. I used the same trick writing thesis report in my undergrad years. :)

As I said, Shen's book crystalized the concept and made it public. However Chen FaKe did metion it earlier (as reported in Hung JunShen's book). Before that there doesn't seem to have any record describing peng jing as *the* basic jing. So I'd say no earlier than 1930's and no later than 1963.


Fu Sheng Yuan has not written on this, however, we certainly have had some good discussion on it. Fu S.Y. has repeatedly told me that without peng jin there is no tai chi. Those who say otherwise clearly do not understand the art. The fault, he believes, is of poor or incomplete understanding by teachers not the students.

LeRoy Clark


From: Jack Rowley <jackr@emc.trl.oz.au>

> Thought a quote from Ling ZhiAn article in T'ai Chi's latest issue
> would amuse and beguile:
> "Generally, we separate jing into eight kinds of jing.  But altogether there
> is only one jing.  That is called peng jing, or ward off energy.
> Peng jing means that your limbs and body
> extend and issue the energy like a spring."
> He said that when you issue peng jing, you must combine it with your
> mind and qi.  But if you
> extend your limbs and body and overdo it, then you become rigid.

From: wooi <wooi@gov.on.ca>

This is a quote Gu Luixin attributed to Hong Junsheng and used in his book Pao Chui (published by Hai Feng I believe in 1983 or so):

'Taiji is peng jing, movements are done in spirals'


[[researched by Forrest Chang]]

Quoted from an interview with Yang Zhen Duo (son of Yang Cheng Fu) in T'ai Chi Magazine, vol 19. No. 5.:

"Normally, when we talk about peng( ward off)," Yang said, "we are not talking about the ward off in the the form .. the left ward off and right ward off. Peng is to intentionally let go and make the body loose so the body is connected. The inner feeling is that it is like there is a metal spring in the body. This is ward off" ............ < Yang goes off and describes qualities of roll back, ji, an, tsai, lieh, kao> ............. He said that these energies should not be confused with specific postures and cited the example of the ward off postures. "The way ALL THE POSTURES ARE USED IS WITH PENG JING (ward off energy). And this is done continuously. As soon as you stay loose, you have ward off energy. So EVERY FRAME HAS WARD OFF ENERGY. But in some postures it is more apparent".


Allen Chen:

> I tend to agree that such a reference is rare outside of the Chen FaKe
> line.  Although Ma YueLiang did have a similar reference in his push hand
> book.  But really, I dont see the problem.  It doesnt really matter
> which term you use to describe the basic internal strength.
>
> I think the whole point is about doing, and not about names.

Jim Keenan:

>>The point is not accuracy in translation. The point is use of the accurate
>>term.

Allen Chen:

> The point is about accuracy in concept.  Who cares if you call it
> neijing, pengjing, chansijing, zhengjing, huenyuenjing,
> zhengtijing, or ahgo ahmao jing?

from a post by Terry Chan:

These are all good points. People have already mentioned Ma Yueliang's and Kuo Lien-ying's references. Forrest posted the recent interview with Yang Zhenduo of the Yang family and if you look back at several of the featured interviews in _T'ai Chi_ (famous and not so famous guys and from different styles), there has already been a clear and fair amount of usage to convey the importance and usefulness of this concept.

Peter Lim, in his salad days, once wrote a post translating excerpts of a book by Zhang Yijun, who compiled the the teachings of his teacher, Li Yaxuan (aka Li Chunnian), a noted disciple of Yang Chengfu (the book is _Taijiquan Li Chuan Chen_, published in 1986).

After a general discussion on jing, Li discusses peng jing and noted:

"Peng Jing is after long periods of sincere practice of Taijiquan and push hands, resulting in a type of sung (no tension) yet not sung, soft but carring in it hard, active but sunk and heavy, elastic and pliable type of jing, which includes sticking (nien), neutralising (hua), bouyant (fu), trapping (kun) usage type of jing, also called internal jing (neijing)". Also we have from from myrid schools and students who hold Taiji is peng jing, movement goes spiraling (luo xuan) as the central maxim.

Again this comment (esp. the last sentence) is relayed by a disciple of Yang Chengfu, not through the Chen Fake line. If he saw things that way, it certainly sounds like the idea of peng jing being a central basis of Taijiquan is probably more widespread than what [some people] seem to believe.

Why and how does this idea of looking at peng jing (esp. on this list) come about? Of Taijiquan's traditional eight powers (peng, li, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao), the most straightward is peng. An old method of training is to train in one posture until you get the body mechanics (internal and external) correct (a method not generally used much these days).

When you have this initial understanding or foot in the door, it is much easier to understand the others instead of trying to do all eight (much less couple them with the five elements). Perhaps that's why Ma Yueliang calls the understanding of peng is when the beginner crosses the threshold into real learning.

When you approach the training of the neijia with this practical orientation, it's easy to see why people do say peng jing or Taiji is all peng-based. Of course, if we take this discussion out of the abstract and the academic, it's not going to be exactly accurate because really, if you examine the form, none of the eight postures stand on their own. They're present in different combinations (depending on the application) but that's too complex. For exposition and understanding of how to develop Taiji skill that they're broken out and discussed this way.

Of course, if one is only interested in the academic sphere of things and not in what it takes to help people reach a level of skill, then the practical approach is going to drive you crazy.

Even if it were only Feng Zhiqiang, Ma Yueliang, and Yang Zhenduo saying this, it would be useful enough for me. I'm not into the theory and writings of past masters for the semantic and linguistic pleasures but for the practical insights that their writings and approach can give.

The other point is, I dont know of any outstanding writer whos also of any high skill at Taijiquan. If great linguistic facility (or mathematics) was what it takes to really understand Taijiquan (or whatever), then the highest levels of accomplishment would be dominated by those sorts of people. Somehow, that doesn't seem to work out.

Terry Chan


From: Mike Sigman <msigman@netcom.com>

Although there is some cavilling about the term peng (jing), I think that the relationship of peng as in wardoff and peng as the core jing (which powers wardoff and most of the internal movements, when its sophistication is understood).. is obvious to someone who really has and understands the skills. I have never run into an argument about peng except from people who don't really understand the use of the jing (and I mean in more than just letting someone test your root).

As a background, let me quote from a Wu-style book by Ma Yueh Liang and Zee Wen about peng:

"Peng. It is the concealed strength because it is created mainly by feeling and crafty and it can be barely discerned in the surface of the forms. It ranks first in the Thirteen Kinetic Movements, which indicates its importance. In tuishou practice, the learner is said to have crossed the threshold only when he has learned the meaning and method of warding. Beginners often take years to accomplish this..... While practicing, not only the hands and arms, but any part of the body get into contact with the other side should one makes use of the warding force."

It has been described as an audible force, because you can detect the fine motions of your opponent as if through the sense of hearing, and you can thus make a repid response for rapid attack and a slow response for slow offensive. It is also a force of support and attack." (from Wu Style Taichichuan Tuishou by Ma Y.L. and Zee Wen)

In the above quote, there is a mirroring of the common idea that peng jing is the core, without which one is not doing real (tm) Taiji. :^) However, there is also the comment about peng's use as an audible force for listening to the opponent's body and motions.

Listening and Sensitivity have been interpretted (as has just about everyother term related to the neijia) to mean whatever a particular teacher chooses to mean (all the while believing that his/her intuition is infallible, etc.). Almost everyone who has some experience in not only static, but moving jing has had the experience of feeling another person and being able to locate tensions, off-balance areas, beginnings of movements, etc.

On the other hand, there are many sensitivities that someone can develop that have nothing to do with peng jing. For instance, it doesn't take much practice to rest a wrist against another's arm and lightly maintain contact while the other person moves their arm about. Yet this is not Listening in the neijia sense.

The point I was slowly getting to was to express an opinion (i.e., I could be wrong and I'm interested in others' opinions) about listening. In my experience, I think that establishing a good peng path to your hands (or other body areas) allows a constant base from which to judge things. In other words, it is like a comparator circuit or any sensing device which has a known base to use as a comparison.

When I touch someone, I am trying to feel the ground through them. Anything that hinders a pure ground signal is obvious, whether it is a tense shoulder, tense back, unbalanced posture, etc. When someone moves their arms using local arm and shoulder musculature (as opposed to manipulationg the ground strength with the waist and back), it is immediately apparent, no matter what their spiel is. :^)

So the question is, what is the exact mechanism of using the peng jing as a detector of another persons posture and moves?


>From allen@starfire.utias.utoronto.ca Mon Jul 22 14:06:35 1996

Hong JunSheng is one of the very senior and still surviving student of Chen FaKe. His skill is so high the Japanese call him wizard hand. He also tries to preserve the authenticity of Chen FaKe's teaching, and I think its quite safe to say that he can represent Chen FaKes ideas with great accuracy. Below are some (unauthorized) translations from his book.

Any mistake in the translation is probably, well most likely, mine.:

"There are two aspects of Peng. One is referred to the 'jing' aspect, which is the 'silk reeling jing'. This jing is obtained naturally through prolonged training in the interchanging of opposing helical motion. My teacher Chen FaKe called this peng jing, which is what is commonly known as neijing [internal strength]. Applying this jing through various techniques we have the eight techniques of taijiquan. The second aspect is the Peng Technique from the eight techniques. This is a technique for meeting the incoming hand of the opponent.............The emphasis of the Peng Technique is on the leading and neutralizing of the incoming force."

"Chen Xin said: 'Taijiquan is Chan Fa [the technique of reeling and winding].'"He also said: "if you don't understand this, you don't understand taijiquan." It is clear that the fundamentals of taijiquan is the reeling technique. The appearance of the motion in Chen style taijiquan is helical. This form of spiral movement not only appears on the surface of the skin, but also appears inside through the whole body. It causes every joint, muscle bundle, and even every cell to experience motion. Through repeated stretching and twining in the training for a prolonged period of time, the body will naturally attain a resilient and elastic strength that is loose and yet not loose at the same time. This is the silk reeling jing. In the Chen style this is also known as peng jing, or the neijing commonly known in taijiquan literature. ChanFa, the 'technique of reeling', then, is the various application of this strength."

"We must understand how to apply hardness and softness, what is softness, what is hardness, and how hardness and softness can interchange and compliment each other. People who do not study Chen style taijiquan, or study it but don't understand the technique of reeling, when they apply hardness and softness their motion are usually linear. Or maybe they understand how to move in large orbital curves, but they don't have the spin coupling with the orbital motion. The result is that when they use hardness they feel they are resisting, when they use softness they would feel they are letting go. All motion in Chen style taijiquan, whether it is large or small, are spinning. If you turn half a circle, you have 180 degrees of arc composed of points. At the contact point with your opponent, if you meet the motion head on (meeting the point), then you feel hardness; if you meet the motion from the side (meeting the arc), then you feel softness. If your point meets the opponent's arc it will slide over and becomes softness. Only if you meet point with point will the hardness appear. If both sides meet each other head on, however, it becomes resisting force with force. At this point, whoever has bigger strength and faster motion will bounce out the weaker and slower. In Chen style, although you need to use your point to attack the opponent's point, you should use the point in the arc from the spinning motion, so during fajing there is no feeling of resistance."

"We can use the motion of the screw as an example. Whether you are driving in or taking out the screw, you cannot use pulling or pushing motion because of the thread. It feels sticky and yet it can easily move in both directions if you just turn the screw. This is what the Classics mean when it says 'Nien is Zou, Zou is Nien'........Taijiquan is a whole body exercise. The requirement of the body being centered without leaning is a vertical thread; the two legs are two threads going down; the two arms are threads that can change in any direction depending on the situation. When everything is coupled together, the directions can change in a million ways, and the opening/closing, substantial/insubstantial, and hardness/softness of the jing is very difficult to predict. Although every part of the body are like the gears in the clock and can have it's own motion, the most important part is still the motion of the torso. So the Classics says it is governed at the waist. The turning of the waist is what moves the arms and the legs, and the compliment motion of the arms and the legs also can not be ignored."


End of FAQ


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